WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:14.600 The best thing people can do is they can decide what kind of life do I want to build? What kind of life do I want to have? What is really important to me? And I think that's why you're seeing a lot of analog experiences making a comeback. 00:00:15.060 --> 00:00:33.680 You know, and and so, you know, I do a lot of, you know, paper writing. I write every morning. I write on paper and I write and I touch paper before I touch my digital stuff, because once I get into it, then I'm like, oh, my God, I got, you know, all this stuff happening. 00:00:33.680 --> 00:00:51.300 So I think it's a matter of, you know, kind of how do how does how do I want to construct my life and what do I want to focus on and then seeking out information about that topic or, you know, if you want to stay informed, figure out the best way. 00:00:51.300 --> 00:00:57.820 You know, what are the what are the creators or the outlets or the people that you trust to keep you informed? 00:00:57.820 --> 00:01:03.420 But but you've got to you can't just be in it all the time because it's just it's crazy. 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:11.520 It's just no way to live. I don't think there's a different kind of sickness that comes from not seeing people in the flesh. 00:01:11.520 --> 00:01:18.260 We spent years locked in, logged on, doom scrolling through a world that doesn't exist. 00:01:18.260 --> 00:01:26.240 But out there in pubs, in living rooms, on mountaintops and knitting circles, people are still finding each other. 00:01:26.240 --> 00:01:30.440 This is Real Meet. I'm your host, Brian Feister. Let's go meet someone. 00:01:31.780 --> 00:01:36.120 Hello, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Real Meet Podcast. 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:41.140 I'm your host, Brian Feister. Today I have with me Jill Manuel. 00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:49.160 She is a media coach and executive with over 20 years of experience in journalism, running the news stations, media. 00:01:49.820 --> 00:02:04.160 And she currently serves as an advisor and a coach to both organizations and other media executives who are trying to find their place in what we'll call this brave new world post a lot of shift that's happened in journalism. 00:02:04.160 --> 00:02:07.760 So today we're going to dive deep into all of that. 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:10.520 So, Jill, thank you so much for for joining me. 00:02:10.580 --> 00:02:11.860 It's an honor to have you on the show. 00:02:11.860 --> 00:02:15.020 Thanks for inviting me, Brian. 00:02:15.020 --> 00:02:17.080 Yeah, absolutely. 00:02:17.380 --> 00:02:24.500 So I think what I always do with everybody is I start by asking them a little bit about how they got their start. 00:02:24.500 --> 00:02:36.720 So if we're talking about journalism and we're talking about community, where what do you think for you was sort of the spark with that or what got you first interested in it when you started a long time ago? 00:02:36.720 --> 00:02:37.700 A long time ago. 00:02:39.060 --> 00:02:44.080 Well, I mean, 20 years, I, you know, I've been doing software engineering for 20 years. 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:45.140 That's just my bias. 00:02:45.140 --> 00:02:45.620 I don't know. 00:02:45.620 --> 00:02:52.880 So, yeah, well, you know, Brian, I was kind of an accidental news person. 00:02:52.880 --> 00:03:06.220 I was a philosophy undergrad and I went to the Newhouse School of Public Communications to just figure out I might as well, you know, get something I can actually use. 00:03:06.220 --> 00:03:11.600 And so when I graduated from there, I lived in Washington, Washington, D.C. 00:03:11.600 --> 00:03:18.720 And, you know, I started sending my resume out to every everybody in, you know, in the city and networking. 00:03:18.720 --> 00:03:21.380 And I interviewed with Ike Pappas. 00:03:21.380 --> 00:03:22.880 I don't know if you remember Ike Pappas. 00:03:22.880 --> 00:03:24.460 You know, remember that movie, The Package? 00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:25.540 He was the reporter. 00:03:25.540 --> 00:03:27.920 He's a longtime CBS guy. 00:03:27.920 --> 00:03:36.200 And, you know, and he had his own production company said, you know, Jill, I don't have anything, but I'm going to take you down one floor. 00:03:36.200 --> 00:03:40.420 And I'm going to introduce you to somebody who might have have a position. 00:03:40.420 --> 00:03:53.840 It turns out it was the fledgling Fox News operation at 2030 M Street in Washington, which is right next to the CBS News Bureau, Washington Bureau. 00:03:54.320 --> 00:03:56.120 And that's how I got my start. 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:59.840 I got introduced to Anita Cleaver, who was running the operation. 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:07.280 And, you know, at that time, Fox was just, you know, a collection of, you know, just I don't know. 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:07.700 I don't know. 00:04:07.700 --> 00:04:10.980 There were probably eight or nine stations and there were some Fox affiliates. 00:04:11.340 --> 00:04:14.340 That was back when Fox was really just getting started. 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:22.000 And so I got this job and never looked back because what I discovered is how much I loved it. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:23.240 I loved it. 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:25.520 I lived and breathed working in news. 00:04:26.060 --> 00:04:31.680 And from there, I just kind of kept, you know, kind of kept, you know, moving up. 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:39.420 And I moved from Washington to New York City with the launch of Fox News Channel in 96 because they needed people. 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:44.540 Then I did a bunch of jobs there, moved to Chicago to start my working in local news. 00:04:44.700 --> 00:04:46.440 I was an EP at WBBM. 00:04:46.440 --> 00:04:50.020 Then I got my first news job in Chicago, my first news director job. 00:04:50.020 --> 00:04:57.420 And then I was a news director in Cleveland, Ohio, then back in Chicago, in Sacramento. 00:04:57.420 --> 00:05:02.660 And that's kind of, that was my last full-time job in a newsroom. 00:05:02.660 --> 00:05:04.340 I was in Sacramento. 00:05:04.340 --> 00:05:05.520 Yeah. 00:05:05.520 --> 00:05:06.600 Very cool. 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:07.160 Interesting. 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:14.680 So, yeah, what I do, I'm so excited just to dive into this topic with you because I feel like it's just so relevant. 00:05:15.220 --> 00:05:17.480 I feel like there's so much to discuss on this topic. 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:25.980 And it's something that's really on my mind, really what you're, you have your blog, your newsletter called the, I think it's called the Trust Shift, right? 00:05:25.980 --> 00:05:28.080 And I read a little bit of that. 00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:30.740 And I've been really impressed by what you've been sharing. 00:05:30.740 --> 00:05:35.320 So often we'll get more, we'll spend more time getting to know each other, people's backstory. 00:05:35.320 --> 00:05:40.900 But in your case, I feel like there's so much to discuss that we can use up more time than we have just talking about it. 00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:51.960 So where my mind goes is, you know, I told, I was telling you a little bit before about the fact that, you know, everybody talks about the exodus of media. 00:05:52.320 --> 00:05:57.380 And, you know, of course, folks who are in media and journalism, you know, it's a lament. 00:05:57.380 --> 00:06:07.440 And I understand that, you know, for myself, you know, I'll just admit that I kind of stepped away from watching the news 20 years ago. 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:13.580 It just started for me as more of a thing where it was like, because they kind of need to keep you hooked and reeled in. 00:06:13.580 --> 00:06:18.080 If there's a lot of sort of sensationalism, negativity, I felt at the time 20 years ago. 00:06:18.080 --> 00:06:22.920 And so, you know, we, everything we do in life, there's tradeoffs, right? 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:27.800 There's a cost for not being, you know, an informed person that's always up to date on the latest news. 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:30.780 But, you know, for me, I kind of decided to pay that price. 00:06:30.780 --> 00:06:43.680 And so, you know, I feel like you and I can have a great conversation because the phenomenon that you're talking about and, you know, as journalism laments sort of societies fall out with a lot of traditional media. 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.500 I feel like I know both sides well, if that makes sense. 00:06:46.500 --> 00:06:52.880 So I'm curious from your perspective, tell us a little bit about how that's evolved over the years. 00:06:52.880 --> 00:07:02.740 I know some of this is stuff I probably read from you before, but for audience, for folks in my audience who aren't familiar, let's kind of like, you know, why don't you summarize that for us? 00:07:02.740 --> 00:07:06.980 Well, that's really the heart of what's happening now. 00:07:06.980 --> 00:07:17.660 You know, there are a lot of different factors that are playing a role, you know, not the least of which is, you know, audience consumption patterns have changed dramatically. 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:32.780 So for a bunch of different reasons, you know, you've got now your Gen Z, which is 18 to 29, they're trust creators more than they trust legacy news organizations. 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:54.980 So, you know, I think when you think about where we are today, you know, you've got legacy news organizations that are continuing to build products that appeal to, you know, older Americans, older, you know, the older consumer, the consumers that have always been there. 00:07:54.980 --> 00:08:17.280 So I think that the inability for most legacy companies to really, you know, prepare for this because the money is not in the preparation, you know, you know, you know that you're preparing for a future company or customer, but there's no revenue in that. 00:08:17.280 --> 00:08:24.640 You know, you know, the revenue for, let's say, a local television station is still, you know, advertising on linear television. 00:08:24.640 --> 00:08:34.460 So you've got this model that, you know, rewards where the revenue is and, you know, digital revenue has not caught up yet. 00:08:34.460 --> 00:08:59.020 I mean, you know, so, and also as you see news organizations begin the transformation to meet new audiences, the sales, the sales side has to evolve as well to solve the problem of, you know, because all about revenue, you know, you know, like local television is a for-profit, you know, enterprise, you know, unless it's a nonprofit like a PBS or something like that. 00:08:59.020 --> 00:09:15.020 So, so, so, so there, there are, so, so, so there's the economic model, you know, that has been based on watching this platform that is really no longer as viable as it once was. 00:09:15.020 --> 00:09:23.980 So what the conversation that has been on everyone's lips for years is now finally starting to come to, I'm seeing it accelerate. 00:09:23.980 --> 00:09:26.460 Yeah, absolutely. 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:53.900 And I think this is related, maybe a slight segue, but I'll just say this, you know, I, I've been, you know, with my business, I've been focused on the idea for, I started thinking about this problem 15 years ago and, and the problem is, you know, in the 90s, whether it's, whether it's the radio or television, you know, you had a single choke point for all information essentially. 00:09:53.900 --> 00:10:04.240 I mean, yes, of course you can find, you can find an indie book or an indie album, but I mean, producing a music album as an independent was like almost impossible in that time, you know? 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:23.700 And so the reason I say that is because I think that with the digital age, the new biggest problem is the problem of curation, you know, the problem of discovery, because what you have is like, you used to have this centralized look, you know, choke point, like I said, where everything went through, that's no longer true. 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:32.240 But now what happens is, as you said, you know, people trust creators more than the traditional news because they feel a personal connection with that. 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:42.740 But you also like, even though I'm admitting to be somebody who's not a big follower of, of the news myself, I also acknowledge that creators bring their own bias. 00:10:42.740 --> 00:10:47.380 You know, they're not, you know, they're, they don't have the same, always have the same journalistic integrity. 00:10:47.380 --> 00:10:49.940 And so that has value for sure. 00:10:49.940 --> 00:10:59.840 But I guess, I guess my thing, and maybe I'm getting too philosophical, by the way, that's if I was a philosophy major, so I didn't know that you were as well. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:13.960 But to get philosophical about it for a bit, I find myself thinking all the time about this, about what does the world look like, where discovery is difficult, curation is, is much lighter than it used to be. 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.420 You know, what are your thoughts about all of that? 00:11:16.420 --> 00:11:21.180 Well, I think, you know, that's, fragmentation is the world we're living in now. 00:11:21.180 --> 00:11:39.940 And so I think that, you know, I think, so what, what, what, what is happening is that people building trust is more important than ever, because you have to be able to trust the person that you're getting your, you know, your information from. 00:11:39.940 --> 00:11:50.960 So I think what you're seeing, and you know, I see it not only in journalism, I see it in, you know, I also coach executives who, you know, and, and you see it in corporate America. 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:55.440 That the, the, the trust is migrating from logos to individuals. 00:11:55.440 --> 00:12:18.420 And so the world looks like, you know, people are choosing to follow and to, to learn from and to be informed by people that, that really are, that, you know, I don't want to say are just like them, but that they can relate to and that they have, that they connect to and have a relationship with. 00:12:18.420 --> 00:12:19.300 You see it everywhere. 00:12:19.300 --> 00:12:20.440 You see it on LinkedIn. 00:12:20.740 --> 00:12:22.700 You see it on every platform. 00:12:22.700 --> 00:12:35.560 And so I think that, you know, that we're going to get to a point where, you know, are we going to see, for example, networks of creators that cover all of the different disciplines? 00:12:35.560 --> 00:12:53.320 And the other thing I'm seeing, Brian, is I'm seeing a real niche down with people, with different, you know, different journalists occupying these niches because people are, they really want to, you know, learn more about a particular topic. 00:12:53.320 --> 00:13:09.940 And they're doing less, but they're super serving, you know, like I live in Iowa City or super serving Taos or super serving, you know, whatever, whatever the location or the discipline might be. 00:13:10.780 --> 00:13:11.220 Yeah. 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:11.300 Yeah. 00:13:11.300 --> 00:13:12.520 Yeah. 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:27.200 And I think there's, I think there's value in that because I do think that it, if we come back to that original problem statement, which is to say, and I don't know if I explained this well, but, you know, both sides have their strengths and weaknesses. 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.520 There's ups and downs on both ends of the spectrum. 00:13:30.520 --> 00:13:47.060 You know, when you look at the 90s and you think about, I often tell people I'm, I sort of, you know, wax poetic about the fact that, you know, in the 90s, right, like probably your favorite band was somebody that you'll never find, if that makes sense, right? 00:13:47.060 --> 00:13:53.380 Because they didn't make it on the radio and it's hard to really tune in to preferences and stuff like that. 00:13:53.380 --> 00:14:08.260 And that's, I think, what you're getting at when you talk about the sort of niche effect that you see with creators who are hyper focused on one particular thing that they're able to go deep on rather than sort of like gloss over everything at a high level, you know? 00:14:08.260 --> 00:14:10.640 So I, in a way, I think that's a good thing. 00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:17.740 And I think that we're in this process of trying to find what's the happy medium, what's the right balance, if that all makes sense. 00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:19.180 Yeah, it does. 00:14:19.180 --> 00:14:47.040 I mean, you know, there, there, it is good because I think that what, you know, because of AI and because it, you know, information is so ubiquitous, you know, then I think there's a real movement toward that connection because, you know, you know, and just like, I mean, let's face it, you know, 20 years ago, you watched, you know, a local newscast because you trusted the people, you know, who are, you know, 00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:49.880 but, but, but, but trust is no longer enough. 00:14:49.880 --> 00:14:54.960 I mean, trust is migrated, but it's no longer, you know, like the main thing. 00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:10.960 The main thing is that it's someone who fits in with your life, you know, as somebody who, who, you know, you know, and who, yeah, you trust them, but you also, you're also, it fits in with who you are and your worldview. 00:15:12.220 --> 00:15:17.580 So I think that's, that's really, that's really the segmentation is also there. 00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:24.100 But the other thing I want to point out though, too, is that, you know, my daughter is, I quote her a lot of my writing. 00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:25.340 She's going to be 25. 00:15:25.340 --> 00:15:28.200 She grew up in a journalist house. 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.180 You know, she grew up with us watching the news and newspapers and all of that. 00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:43.980 And she tells me that, you know, her generation, her, her cohort is so overwhelmed by what the news that there's a lot of news avoiders out there. 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:48.900 And, and there are people that just, they don't want, you said you stopped watching it because it was negative. 00:15:48.900 --> 00:15:50.920 You were an early news avoider. 00:15:50.920 --> 00:15:58.920 And I think that's also, that's also another, you know, another, you know, I think factor in all this. 00:16:00.260 --> 00:16:00.700 Yeah. 00:16:00.700 --> 00:16:11.020 And I think that somebody just at a random peer, another software engineer had said this just yesterday or something like that, or today on LinkedIn. 00:16:11.020 --> 00:16:24.980 And, you know, they were talking about how they had gotten, you know, AI had kind of pushed them to the point where they took on all these multiple side projects and they were like, you know, it's like, oh, I'm more productive and I can increase my output. 00:16:24.980 --> 00:16:28.960 And I think that this is going to just continue. 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:38.020 What we're going to see is now we've already had, we went from being like, oh, you can only access the information that you can touch in a library, right? 00:16:38.380 --> 00:16:40.260 You know, like physically pick up the book. 00:16:40.260 --> 00:16:44.180 And then we went to, you can search everything in the world. 00:16:44.180 --> 00:16:49.620 And now we are at, we're at, we can synthesize and sort of weave together all of it. 00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:50.480 You know what I mean? 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:51.460 Make it contextual. 00:16:51.460 --> 00:16:52.960 That's there's obvious. 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:53.900 Easily. 00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:55.100 Easily. 00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:55.620 Exactly. 00:16:55.620 --> 00:17:02.400 And there are obvious benefits to this, but that's what, this is also, so, you know, I stopped watching the news. 00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:06.360 I deleted myself from all social media except for LinkedIn five years ago. 00:17:06.780 --> 00:17:10.780 And when I did that, I just did it because I felt like, you know what? 00:17:10.780 --> 00:17:18.640 It was an interesting experiment being on Facebook and seeing what everyone I've ever met, you know, thinks all the time, all day long. 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.280 And I just, I just, I realized, actually, this was really informative. 00:17:22.280 --> 00:17:23.400 I actually don't want to know. 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:29.120 I don't want to know what every person I've ever met thinks constantly as just like a stream that sort of. 00:17:29.120 --> 00:17:35.160 And so I feel like I, when you talk about Gen Z feeling that way, I, you know, I'm more of a millennial. 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:39.520 I'm 43, you know, but I've been there for a long time myself. 00:17:39.520 --> 00:17:48.180 And I think that that's the big lesson is that you think that information is power and sort of like amazing and this wonderful gift. 00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:50.240 And of course it is in its own way. 00:17:50.600 --> 00:18:01.840 But there's such a thing as being like, well, like my friend posting on LinkedIn about all his projects and how distracted he was, how inefficient he was by spreading himself over so many different things. 00:18:01.840 --> 00:18:13.700 You know, eventually you just realize you have to pick what you're going to focus on, which brings it all back again to the whole idea of curation and, you know, and like being specific to what you, like, where are you going in life? 00:18:13.780 --> 00:18:18.680 You know, there's a lot of news that's never going to be relevant to you, if that makes, you know, if that makes sense. 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:19.620 You know, it does. 00:18:19.620 --> 00:18:35.760 I think the way I'm thinking about things now after spending over 20 years driven by news events, current events, driven by breaking news, driven by, you know, events out of my control. 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:43.520 Unless it's like, you know, investigative, you know, that you're, you're seeking, but by the news cycle. 00:18:43.520 --> 00:18:56.440 And so, you know, it is what, what I've concluded, Brian, is that I think the best thing people can do is they can decide what kind of life do I want to build? 00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:58.180 What kind of life do I want to have? 00:18:58.180 --> 00:19:00.440 What is really important to me? 00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:10.280 And I think that's why you're seeing a lot of analog experiences making a comeback, you know, and, and so, you know, I do a lot of, you know, paper writing. 00:19:10.280 --> 00:19:19.280 I write every morning, I write on paper and I, and I, I touch paper before I touch my digital stuff. 00:19:19.280 --> 00:19:23.500 Because once I get into it, then I'm like, oh my God, I got, you know, all this stuff happening. 00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:30.680 So I think it's a matter of, you know, kind of how to, how does, how do I want to construct my life? 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:32.960 And, and what do I want to focus on? 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:47.640 And then seeking out information about that topic or, you know, if you want to stay informed, figure out the best way, you know, what are the, what are, what are the creators or the outlets or the people that you trust to keep you informed? 00:19:48.040 --> 00:19:53.200 But, but you've got to, you can't just be in it all the time because it's just, it's crazy. 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:54.600 It's just no way to live. 00:19:54.600 --> 00:19:55.420 I don't think. 00:19:55.420 --> 00:19:57.500 Yeah, I, I agree. 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:05.720 And I'm, you know, it's, uh, it's encouraging to me to hear somebody who's deep in all of it for so long say that. 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:07.960 Cause I mean, that was, that was my conclusion, right? 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:10.000 Like what you just said is really very much. 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:12.940 My conclusion is just, Hey, I can't. 00:20:12.940 --> 00:20:17.640 And especially, especially the point you made about what can I control? 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:22.080 It's not about control in the sense of, um, how do I describe this? 00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:26.300 It's not some sort of greedy power, you know, motive. 00:20:26.540 --> 00:20:33.120 It's just like, if I'm constantly, uh, swimming in all of these things that I have no ability 00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:36.760 to influence for the better, I'm just going to be constantly overwhelmed. 00:20:36.760 --> 00:20:42.980 And that was, that was my conclusion years ago when I, you know, when I like first didn't 00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:45.580 watch the news and then deleted myself from social media. 00:20:45.580 --> 00:20:49.360 And it's all been an evolution toward this, the same, you know, focus. 00:20:49.360 --> 00:20:56.020 Like, how can I, how can I narrow my focus to something where, you know, an entire lifetime 00:20:56.020 --> 00:21:00.360 of a human, it, from one perspective, there's massive potential. 00:21:00.360 --> 00:21:03.040 And from another perspective, you're a drop in the ocean. 00:21:03.040 --> 00:21:03.960 You know what I mean? 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:09.220 It's like, how can I, how can I use, uh, or steward that as best as possible so that 00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:12.020 I actually have a positive influence on the world? 00:21:12.020 --> 00:21:12.840 Right. 00:21:12.840 --> 00:21:17.740 The other thing too, too, you know, we do want to, for an informed electorate and that 00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:23.800 is getting lost in the shuffle, you know, because we don't have, you know, we don't have the 00:21:23.800 --> 00:21:27.460 campfire, which is like the, you know, the six o'clock news. 00:21:27.460 --> 00:21:33.000 People are sitting around anymore where there's a common set of, you know, kind of length. 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.420 There's common set of common language that we all use. 00:21:36.420 --> 00:21:42.660 So, you know, we, we, we need an informed electorate in order for democracy. 00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:48.640 We need watchdog journalists in order to, you know, uh, make sure that elected officials 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:50.060 are doing what they're supposed to be doing. 00:21:50.060 --> 00:21:55.440 Somebody, I profiled in my newsletter last week in Alaska, you know, excited this study 00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.380 about, you know, where there's no local press, voter participation goes way down. 00:22:00.380 --> 00:22:08.100 So I think that, you know, so, but, but what I would also say is that the best thing to do, 00:22:08.180 --> 00:22:14.020 if there's a big breaking news story, take it from me, the best thing to do is give it time 00:22:14.020 --> 00:22:21.160 to develop and then check in, you know, you know, check in, go take a walk and come back. 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:28.040 And, and, you know, so I just don't, I just don't think we need to be part of this, this, it's addictive 00:22:28.040 --> 00:22:29.720 to be part of the minute by minute. 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:31.040 Yeah. 00:22:31.040 --> 00:22:33.600 Wait, wait, wait for it to all play out. 00:22:33.600 --> 00:22:39.060 And then, and then, you know, read the analysis, wait, cause you know, facts come in over time. 00:22:39.060 --> 00:22:46.800 And, and so, uh, wait for, you know, kind of the, everything to kind of come in and then, 00:22:46.800 --> 00:22:49.100 you know, then make your determination. 00:22:49.100 --> 00:22:50.860 Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:50.860 --> 00:22:56.940 And I want to just say that despite my maybe apparent apathy about, you know, journalism, 00:22:56.940 --> 00:23:00.840 since I'm not like a big news person, I, I still value that. 00:23:00.840 --> 00:23:07.520 And, you know, I want to be clear that like, I, you know, I, I think my, my way of thinking 00:23:07.520 --> 00:23:14.640 about this is to say, Hey, when I think about national politics, you know, and that sort of 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:20.820 thing, it's like, okay, I like, I am one of the people that has trouble convincing myself 00:23:20.820 --> 00:23:26.400 to vote for somebody simply because like the caricature that's been so carefully constructed 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:28.380 and it's not, it's not the news. 00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:30.440 It's not the fault of journalism, right? 00:23:30.520 --> 00:23:34.180 Like everything, you know, I mean, I'll say something very cynical. 00:23:34.180 --> 00:23:40.100 I, I think Kurt Vonnegut said it well in, uh, was it slaughterhouse five when he said that, 00:23:40.100 --> 00:23:44.460 uh, he's like, there's a tragic flaw in the American constitution. 00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:47.900 And unfortunately I think nothing can be done to fix it. 00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:50.980 And this is it only a nutcase would want to be president. 00:23:50.980 --> 00:23:52.620 In other words, right. 00:23:52.620 --> 00:23:58.680 It skews towards people who are, uh, who have, um, narcissistic tendencies, right. 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:04.520 To be that powerful, it, it engenders or it attracts that kind of attention and energy. 00:24:04.520 --> 00:24:09.720 And that, you know, that for me, that's always been, uh, but that doesn't mean, right. 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:16.460 That doesn't mean that we shouldn't police these people that, cause if they are narcissistic, 00:24:16.460 --> 00:24:20.120 then, you know, all the more they need to be watched. 00:24:20.120 --> 00:24:21.260 You know what I mean? 00:24:21.260 --> 00:24:24.380 So, so I very much appreciate and agree with that. 00:24:24.380 --> 00:24:29.660 Um, but anyway, that's my, that's my very sort of cynical philosophical take. 00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:32.540 I was always a big, have you ever, have you ever read Kurt Vonnegut? 00:24:32.540 --> 00:24:34.580 I'm a big fan of Vonnegut. 00:24:34.580 --> 00:24:34.820 Yeah. 00:24:34.820 --> 00:24:38.680 Well, you know, he, he lived not too far from where I live in Iowa city. 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:41.280 He, he taught at the Iowa writers workshop. 00:24:42.100 --> 00:24:43.000 Oh, very cool. 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:43.360 Yeah. 00:24:43.360 --> 00:24:43.720 Yeah. 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:44.880 Yeah. 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:46.720 Well, yeah, I always wanted to meet him. 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.780 He's wanted, there's not like a long list of people that like, I would be like, oh, I have 00:24:50.780 --> 00:24:53.320 to meet this person that I never met, but he would be on the list. 00:24:53.320 --> 00:24:55.580 I always appreciated his, uh, his writing. 00:24:55.580 --> 00:25:01.480 But anyway, all that to say, so to bring it back, uh, to the present a bit or grounded 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:05.540 in the present, I would say, I know you've had this advice and I've heard it. 00:25:05.820 --> 00:25:11.880 Um, I've read it from you and in your writing, but I'd love for my audience just to hear from 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:12.880 straight from you. 00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:20.500 Uh, what is your, you know, what is your advice to journalism as they think about like this, 00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:21.320 this shift? 00:25:21.320 --> 00:25:27.460 And, you know, we talk about the fact that, Hey, uh, you often say that the past is in 00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:29.460 the past and like, it's, it's shifted. 00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:34.520 It's not, you know, it's not going to be the same, but I guess what, how do you encourage 00:25:34.520 --> 00:25:39.020 folks in that space or what do you think that they should, should do to position themselves 00:25:39.020 --> 00:25:39.740 for success? 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:40.680 If that makes sense. 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:42.820 Yeah, it does make sense. 00:25:42.820 --> 00:25:48.060 It's a, I think it's a really important factor in, um, what's happening right now, because what 00:25:48.060 --> 00:25:54.460 you're seeing, you're seeing thousands of journalists lose their jobs through, you know, consolidation 00:25:54.460 --> 00:26:03.060 through, uh, Scripps just, you know, uh, cut almost 300 jobs and, and, you know, and that's, 00:26:03.060 --> 00:26:08.960 and, and, you know, because they're transforming, they're trying to create, um, a business model 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:14.880 where they can be viable, uh, and for, you know, the next, you know, a hundred years or 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:15.220 whatever. 00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:21.980 So, um, I think that when you, when you, when you've worked in a business that has given 00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:29.160 you the credibility and, and you're, and you've gotten the credibility, you've gotten, you've 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:34.640 gotten the, you've gotten it from your logo, from your building, from your company, from 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:39.820 your news organization, you know, you're, that gets very comfortable that you don't have 00:26:39.820 --> 00:26:43.780 to worry about your, you already have it because you work there. 00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:49.240 But, but what's, what I see happening over and over, then you've get, you get people who 00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:53.680 have, they've worked in this business for a long time and all of a sudden there's nowhere 00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:54.320 to go. 00:26:55.320 --> 00:27:01.520 You know, all of a sudden these traditional paths like public relations, you know, spokespeople, 00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:03.900 I mean, there's not enough jobs to go around. 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:06.720 There are not other newsrooms to go into either. 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:12.140 If you're a print reporter, newspapers are closing, digital publishers are closing. 00:27:12.280 --> 00:27:19.880 I have a, actually, I track all of the, the job loss and right now we're probably for the 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:26.120 year, we're like in the 3000s already for the year, which is, you know, like for example, 00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:29.400 the BBC said, you know, they're going to cut 2000 people. 00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:34.440 I mean, so, so it's, it's, it's really these tiny numbers are starting to add up. 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:40.040 So you're seeing people who, you know, five, even five years ago could always get a job in 00:27:40.040 --> 00:27:42.520 the business, there's just nothing there. 00:27:42.520 --> 00:27:46.280 And so they're left with, oh my gosh, what am I going to do? 00:27:46.280 --> 00:27:54.080 And, and, and in many cases, they have no idea how to define themselves outside of a media 00:27:54.080 --> 00:27:56.060 organization, how to be visible. 00:27:56.060 --> 00:28:00.600 So how to, how do I present myself to the world? 00:28:00.600 --> 00:28:07.040 I mean, because I've always been the one that did that for somebody else, for a company or, 00:28:07.040 --> 00:28:12.440 you know, so making that, that transition, I think is really hard. 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:16.900 Also, the other thing that happens a lot in the business is that it's so all consuming 00:28:16.900 --> 00:28:23.060 that you wake up one day and, oh my gosh, I don't have the job anymore, but I have no 00:28:23.060 --> 00:28:24.080 network. 00:28:24.080 --> 00:28:25.140 Yeah. 00:28:25.140 --> 00:28:25.620 Yeah. 00:28:25.620 --> 00:28:29.240 You know, so I haven't taken the time to build a network. 00:28:29.780 --> 00:28:37.420 So, you know, journalists have a hard time explaining to other people that are not in the business 00:28:37.420 --> 00:28:38.240 what they do. 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:44.760 And so a lot of times you get, you get, you know, these different verticals, they don't 00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:46.200 understand the value. 00:28:47.360 --> 00:28:47.800 Yeah. 00:28:47.800 --> 00:28:48.720 Yeah. 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:50.940 I want, I'm curious what you think about this. 00:28:50.940 --> 00:28:56.580 If we draw, if we look at how, you know, and I said to you before, I was saying how you've 00:28:56.580 --> 00:29:01.200 got the creators or creator journalists, and they're sort of starting at the bottom up, which 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:06.060 I think personally, I feel like that gives an opportunity to kind of right size the organization, 00:29:06.060 --> 00:29:11.340 meaning you start from one, you wait until the resource and the demand is there, and then 00:29:11.340 --> 00:29:13.740 you expand and you grow a team, you know what I mean? 00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:18.380 Rather than starting from like you, like you're saying, sort of larger organizations that were 00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:20.920 historically the power locus, right? 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.800 Where that's kind of been unbundled to some extent, you know? 00:29:23.800 --> 00:29:28.220 So two people, two people in particular come to mind. 00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:34.040 One was a previous guest on the podcast here and the other, and I'm going to forget his name. 00:29:34.040 --> 00:29:34.520 It's unfortunate. 00:29:34.660 --> 00:29:37.880 I think it might be Flashpoint is his like huge YouTube channel. 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:43.380 So he's a political journalist, a creator journalist, and he has like many millions of views and 00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:48.540 like an, an almost new studio, like a setup and, and like daily reporting. 00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:52.040 And that's that new media conference, which kind of focuses on creators. 00:29:52.040 --> 00:29:54.400 And he was a speaker there. 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:58.440 And I thought that was a pretty amazing story, how this guy has managed to, like you said, 00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:03.340 earn trust, which is a highly sensitive area when you, when you're political specifically, 00:30:03.340 --> 00:30:08.760 like he is, how do you make sure that your audience wants to fund you because they believe in 00:30:08.760 --> 00:30:14.400 journalistic integrity and they believe in like you being bipartisan, you being nonpartisan and 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.860 actually like calling out the problems on both sides. 00:30:17.860 --> 00:30:19.560 And so that was interesting. 00:30:19.560 --> 00:30:26.440 And then the other person, Michael Kauffman, he runs a newsletter that is not the kind of thing you 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:28.840 think of in the traditional journalistic sense. 00:30:28.840 --> 00:30:34.420 It's, it's, uh, it's more like, Hey, I'm, I'm going fishing this weekend and here are the, you know, 00:30:34.420 --> 00:30:37.240 here's the, the, the moon state. 00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:45.080 And, uh, here's like some events and here's, you know, some, uh, some different things that I'm thinking about. 00:30:45.080 --> 00:30:49.780 And he kind of is trying to get people to that sort of Zen place that we talk about, you know, 00:30:49.780 --> 00:30:54.940 trying to create more of that feeling of like some news that is informative and yet calming. 00:30:54.940 --> 00:30:55.300 Right. 00:30:55.300 --> 00:30:59.740 It's, it's enriching to your life without sort of making you panic all the time, you know, 00:30:59.740 --> 00:31:04.820 and he's got 45,000 subscribers, which is nothing to sneeze at in upstate New York. 00:31:04.820 --> 00:31:13.540 So what do you think about, so, okay, I guess my, where I was going with it, sorry for the long drawn 00:31:13.540 --> 00:31:14.200 out point here. 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:19.700 I guess what I'm saying is that Michael Kauffman made a really good point. 00:31:19.700 --> 00:31:24.400 He talked to, he wanted, he focused on do what you love, you know, and I think that when you look 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:30.620 at journalism, journalism, trying to cover everything and now it getting more strategic and more sort 00:31:30.620 --> 00:31:36.560 of niche and specific, I feel like that's good advice. Um, you know, I'm curious what your thought 00:31:36.560 --> 00:31:41.840 is about, you know, creator journalism and how, if people are looking to reinvent themselves because, 00:31:41.840 --> 00:31:46.280 you know, the industry is laying people off. I mean, do you think people should, obviously not 00:31:46.280 --> 00:31:51.060 everyone has it in them to be a creator. I'm just curious your thoughts about all of that. 00:31:51.060 --> 00:31:58.660 Well, I, I, what I think is that anyone now has the ability to create their own media company. 00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:05.680 It's never been easier. It's never been more, you know, so, you know, there are also, uh, like the 00:32:05.680 --> 00:32:11.880 create news creator core there, there are now, now you're seeing entities that are being set up 00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:20.980 to support creators. Um, I think that ASU, I think it's ASU has a creator major now that you can do. 00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:28.700 Then you've got, so you've got, so you've got a lot of people who are leaving legacy and starting their own 00:32:28.700 --> 00:32:36.720 thing. So even if you get, you want to continue your journalism, it's kind of a hard road, but you 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:45.140 know, you can, if you've got, you know, if you've got the guts and you've got the, the, the, the wherewithal 00:32:45.140 --> 00:32:51.180 and you've got, you know, the passion for it, I think you can make a go of it with somebody like 00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:56.340 Brian. But what you, what, what I see working is all, is all these different income streams and you, 00:32:56.340 --> 00:33:01.180 you know what I'm talking about, you know, the newsletter, and then you've got, you've got 00:33:01.180 --> 00:33:08.160 different income streams and, you know, really diversifying, but back to your example of, you 00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:14.320 know, one creator started, look at it like a guy like Johnny Harris. He was one guy. Now he's got an, 00:33:14.320 --> 00:33:20.900 you know, now I think he's got like, I think around 20, I don't know the exact number, but Johnny Harris 00:33:20.900 --> 00:33:27.580 is, you know, investigative journalism from do it, did his own thing, got on YouTube, wildly successful, 00:33:27.580 --> 00:33:33.560 and is building out his company called Newpress. You've got Dhar Mann, you know, you've got 00:33:33.560 --> 00:33:40.520 Stephen Bartlett, you've got, and these are not new journalists, but they are creators who are building, 00:33:40.520 --> 00:33:48.340 you know, they started out as one person and built. So, you know, so, so, so the way to think about scaling 00:33:48.340 --> 00:33:57.740 in 2026 is so different than it was in 2006, you know, scaling, you don't need the infrastructure, 00:33:57.740 --> 00:34:04.440 you don't need, you know, like a, like a brick and mortar newsroom and, you know, it can, it can happen 00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:11.860 anywhere. So, so, you know, so you've got a couple of things happening. You've got, you've got, you know, 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:18.560 legacy brands and organizations trying to be relevant to their audience. They have to be relevant 00:34:18.560 --> 00:34:26.040 because that's really, I mean, you know, the, the people who are tuning in every night at six o'clock 00:34:26.040 --> 00:34:33.380 will be gone. I mean, you know, I mean, you know, so you've, you've got to start really appealing to 00:34:33.380 --> 00:34:41.040 people. And so, you know, I think that you've got, you've got that happening. So you do have the scale 00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:48.240 down, like you said, and the scale up and, you know, and I think the scale down is, is so difficult 00:34:48.240 --> 00:34:54.800 because it comes with culture. It comes with a lot of baggage. It comes with, this is the way we've 00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:03.120 always done things. It comes with people who, you know, I say, I call it being classically trained in 00:35:03.120 --> 00:35:10.660 broadcast TV because that's how they grew up. They grew up doing things a certain way. And that, Brian, 00:35:10.660 --> 00:35:18.060 as you know, is very hard to, you know, you trans, you know, to make the, make the, make the turn. 00:35:18.060 --> 00:35:24.340 So, you know, so I think there are so many different things going on and, oh, by the way, 00:35:24.340 --> 00:35:30.840 you've got to be proficient in AI in order to, you know, to stay relevant. So there are a lot of things 00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:37.700 coming at people who, for years, sat in one chair every night at six o'clock to anchor the news 00:35:37.700 --> 00:35:43.920 and had everything done for them. And I talked to somebody today who told me, who's part of the 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:50.760 Scripps thing, and that, that they told me their co-anchor is now being asked to do all these things 00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:57.400 the co-anchor has never done before. And that's very typical. And while, yeah, that's, that's pretty 00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:05.440 harsh. But at the end of the day, the price of not transforming is, yes, it's the extinction. 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:13.060 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to, it is, you know, weird as it may sound, because I mean, 00:36:13.060 --> 00:36:18.260 I've been fortunate that software engineering has been a very in-demand profession for 20 years that, 00:36:18.380 --> 00:36:24.820 that I've been doing it. But it's experiencing the squeeze in a big way. Yeah. You know, I would say, 00:36:24.820 --> 00:36:30.420 I might say more so even than, I can't think of another profession that's quite, you know, 00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:35.740 the same because the idea is, well, you know, the code can all just sort of write itself by magic now. 00:36:35.740 --> 00:36:42.700 And it's like, well, the, the really weird part is that's not, that's not the opposite of the truth, 00:36:42.700 --> 00:36:47.420 the way I wish it were, you know what I mean? Neither, neither is it quite true. In other words, 00:36:47.420 --> 00:36:52.940 to a surprising degree, AI is able to write code. That's what I want to say. You know, that, that's, 00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:58.720 that's actually shocking. You know, I, and I, you know, that was where, you know, and the context for 00:36:58.720 --> 00:37:03.740 this podcast and about in-person connection, you know, when I started my own business about in-person 00:37:03.740 --> 00:37:10.860 connection. And I did that because I, I, I saw, and I think I was right about this, you know, three years 00:37:10.860 --> 00:37:15.980 ago when I very first time I used AI to help me write, you know, like I learned a new programming 00:37:15.980 --> 00:37:22.340 language and I learned it faster than I ever have sort of like learned something new. And so the 00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:29.840 acceleration factor was very obvious. And, you know, in light of all that, I was like, the thing that is 00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:34.160 going to become valuable is, is connection, just like you're talking about with authenticity 00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:40.720 and trust, you know what I mean? Like that is going to be the, where all the value moves because 00:37:40.720 --> 00:37:46.420 we've spent so much time putting so much value on all these little apps that have their, they have 00:37:46.420 --> 00:37:51.680 their life cycle and they're a flash in the pan. And sometimes the flash is big, maybe a billion people 00:37:51.680 --> 00:37:56.200 use it and then it still goes to zero. You know what I mean? Like that, that's my life, 00:37:56.200 --> 00:38:03.460 right. It's like, I built those products, you know? And so I, um, but yeah, anyway, I just think 00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:09.260 that it's interesting because I, I guess I was just going to say that there will be a, there will be a 00:38:09.260 --> 00:38:15.300 reckoning that involves correcting between the extremes of like, oh, AI is magically just going to 00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:19.480 do everything. And you, you know, all you need is three people. You can do the equivalent of 100 00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:24.020 people's worth of work. It's like never going to happen. Right. But on the other hand, the, 00:38:24.020 --> 00:38:30.320 the amplifying effect of AI, at least with, you know, writing code, which I do is very real. 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:35.800 You know what I mean? So I think we're, the global economy is really trying, it's really 00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:42.320 in just such a huge flux as we try to land on like, what does the future look like? You know, 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:48.520 for me, I, I have no idea. Like I'm, I'm, I'm totally baffled. You know what I mean? Like, 00:38:48.540 --> 00:38:54.020 I don't know what to expect anymore. Well, I do, I do think that, you know, the other thing that I 00:38:54.020 --> 00:39:01.660 think is becoming more important is discernment. Yes. You know, because discernment is something that 00:39:01.660 --> 00:39:09.360 you can't teach Claude how to discern, you know? And, and so, you know, and, but I do think though, 00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:15.940 I worry that, you know, you know, I, I, I, you know, I'm very proficient at AI. You said, I mean, 00:39:15.940 --> 00:39:22.000 I've built some pretty cool products using, you know, like, you know, Codex and Claude Code, but, 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:28.260 you know, I think that I already know how to think, I know how to write, I know how to do all of these 00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:36.340 things. And I worry that a generation growing up with AI, you know, they don't have to, you know, 00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:43.500 they haven't done the legwork that we have. And, and so what is going to get lost in that 00:39:43.500 --> 00:39:49.060 translation? So you've got this whole, like my daughter's generation, even, you know, like maybe 00:39:49.060 --> 00:39:55.080 even I, Gen Y, right after her, you know, they grew up with screens. My daughter didn't grow up 00:39:55.080 --> 00:40:01.220 with a cell phone. She got like this sixth grade. She, um, but they grew up, but the, but Gen Y, 00:40:01.220 --> 00:40:08.380 I, it's all screens and now it's AI. So, you know, you've got 10 year olds using code to 00:40:08.380 --> 00:40:17.340 Claude Code or whatever, you know, and, and so, and, and while it is a force multiplier with a PhD level 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:24.440 of, you know, you can do a lot of stuff, let's face it. It's also, you know, what is the price and 00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:32.220 the cost going to be of being able to, you know, you know, synthesize, you know, and that's why I don't 00:40:32.220 --> 00:40:36.900 know about you, Brian, but being a philosophy major has been, was the best move I ever made because 00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:41.380 I know how to think about everything. I know how to approach it. I can problem solve, 00:40:41.380 --> 00:40:48.760 but what about, you know, what about kids that just throw it all into, into an LLM and then 00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:52.120 that's what, that's what worries me. 00:40:52.120 --> 00:40:59.220 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I would just say, uh, on a technical level, because I'm, 00:40:59.220 --> 00:41:04.800 I'm pretty deep on the technical with regard to the sort of, you know, underlying ways that would, 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:13.200 how does AI function under the hood? You know, I think that the risk is that, um, obviously the 00:41:13.200 --> 00:41:18.240 atrophy of skills, like you're saying, that's a big part of it. The other part is not only are you 00:41:18.240 --> 00:41:25.120 outsourcing, you know, your thinking, which is dangerous. In addition, it's possible that these 00:41:25.120 --> 00:41:32.140 models actually go backwards so they can actually poison it. So if you have the ability to generate 00:41:32.140 --> 00:41:38.480 in one month, want more than more content than all of humanity has, has generated since the dawn of 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:44.600 time, which is real, that's where we are today. Yep. And if you do that, and then you're constantly 00:41:44.600 --> 00:41:50.160 scraping the internet to pick up new knowledge and ingest it, you're poisoning the well. 00:41:50.160 --> 00:41:58.180 Right. The stuff that you wrote. Well, you're, you're, you're consuming your own hallucinations 00:41:58.180 --> 00:42:04.600 and then those hallucinations become more reality and baked in, they become reality. Exactly. Yeah. 00:42:04.600 --> 00:42:09.940 Yeah. You know, I think that's, that is, and also are we looking at, I forget the term for it, 00:42:09.940 --> 00:42:15.060 you know, it's not regenerative, but the AI that, that develops itself, right? 00:42:15.060 --> 00:42:20.260 AGI, AGI, generalized intelligence. Is that what you're talking about? 00:42:20.260 --> 00:42:25.400 Yeah. I'm talking about, I forget there's another term for it, but this is, but it's, it's, 00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:32.760 you know, it'll repair itself and it will, you know, so it's kind of crazy. So I just think, 00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:41.020 I think more than ever, we need, we need people, you know, in the journalism space and in, 00:42:41.020 --> 00:42:47.680 you know, all the spaces that, that, that know how to think. I mean, I think that, that, that really, 00:42:47.680 --> 00:42:52.520 so it's, it's a, it's a, it's a pretty interesting time. I mean, 00:42:52.520 --> 00:43:00.180 I know, I know, you know, it, it, it helps me as a, you know, as a business owner be more productive, 00:43:00.180 --> 00:43:05.620 but you've got to, you've, you know, you've got to preserve the good stuff. 00:43:05.620 --> 00:43:13.100 Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. It's such a, I have never felt more, more tension in walking the line 00:43:13.100 --> 00:43:17.860 that you're talking about, you know, between like, you know, it's like, oh, wow, I could like 00:43:17.860 --> 00:43:23.040 outsource this, but should I, you know? And it's like, you know, you ask yourself that a million times 00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:28.500 a day. Are you, it used to not so much be an option to outsource your thinking. And so now you're 00:43:28.500 --> 00:43:34.200 like, well, which parts, what's my hierarchy for like how I value certain modes of thinking? You know what 00:43:34.200 --> 00:43:39.340 you mean? Like, how do I, which, which piece do I want to spend more time on? Cause I can always, 00:43:39.340 --> 00:43:45.000 and that's, but you know, but that's a legitimate path forward. I think, you know, I think that the 00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:51.180 idea is outsource the grunt work so you can spend time, you can spend more time on thinking higher 00:43:51.180 --> 00:43:58.260 value stuff, but you know, so I, so back to like the, the bigger question that, that you posed to me. 00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:05.020 I mean, I do, I think, I think AI is a piece of that. It's, it's all, and it's all, it's all coming 00:44:05.020 --> 00:44:14.160 together, isn't it? It's all like, you know, I think the media transformation in 26 is, is really the 00:44:14.160 --> 00:44:19.320 year that we're starting to see it all happening before all the stuff I've been saying for three years 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:26.280 is happening. And all this stuff that I lived as someone in a legacy organization, trying to, 00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:32.080 trying to, you know, Hey, we got to be there for, you know, other audiences, you know, that, 00:44:32.080 --> 00:44:34.300 that's all coming, I see coming to fruition. 00:44:35.900 --> 00:44:43.720 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's an interesting time. I, I, I think that sometimes guests that I have on 00:44:43.720 --> 00:44:50.200 the show will even almost, uh, I'm very philosophical. And so sometimes they're not maybe prepared for 00:44:50.200 --> 00:44:55.540 that. And it's like, I've never wondered more or felt more uncertain about where, where it's all 00:44:55.540 --> 00:44:59.020 going. I mean, I know a certain, there's certain, there's certain ground truths, right? 00:44:59.020 --> 00:45:05.860 Human connection is becoming a premium experience. Yeah. We're just crazy to me. 00:45:05.860 --> 00:45:12.680 I know it is, it is becoming a premium experience. Yeah. And I think that I wanted to, 00:45:12.680 --> 00:45:17.120 you know, yeah, with my business, I wanted to, I wanted to make space for true community, 00:45:17.120 --> 00:45:21.380 which includes things like the chess club and the knitting club that are, you know, never gonna 00:45:21.380 --> 00:45:28.540 make a fortune, but it's like, I mean, there are so many people for whom the connection they made at 00:45:28.540 --> 00:45:32.460 the chess club is like the most important connection in their life, you know what I mean? Or something 00:45:32.460 --> 00:45:37.260 like, you know what I mean? And so I wanted to sort of like include everybody in that way, but 00:45:37.260 --> 00:45:45.700 yeah. So yeah, we could, man, we could wax poetic on this for hours and hours and something that is on 00:45:45.700 --> 00:45:51.280 my mind. I always like to give people an opportunity to share just like anything that is important to 00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:56.560 you, folks that are part of your audience that you'd like them to hear from you, anything on your 00:45:56.560 --> 00:46:01.340 mind that is just some parting thoughts or absolutely share projects that you're working 00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:04.520 on that you want, uh, folks to know about anything like that. 00:46:04.520 --> 00:46:11.260 Well, first of all, I want to thank you again for inviting me. Um, and you know, 00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:17.640 and the things that I'm working, I'm working on some really interesting, you know, projects. I've got 00:46:17.640 --> 00:46:25.020 my newsletter. I'm working on a documentary. Um, I'm working on, um, you know, uh, helping people 00:46:25.020 --> 00:46:31.060 rebrand their businesses so that they're more mission focused. And the other thing that I want 00:46:31.060 --> 00:46:38.740 to do more of Brian is I want to help women who for their whole careers have been invisible. 00:46:38.740 --> 00:46:40.640 I want to help them be more visible. 00:46:40.640 --> 00:46:46.680 Absolutely. Yeah. That's couldn't agree more. You know what I mean? I I'll, I'll put this out 00:46:46.680 --> 00:46:51.500 there just as a plus one to your point. You know, I, I always searched very specifically 00:46:51.500 --> 00:46:56.900 for a female co-founder for my business. I just never could quite find the fit. It was unfortunate. 00:46:56.900 --> 00:47:01.320 You know, I haven't found that person yet. And so I just say that as a way of saying, 00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:05.980 I agree with you. And, uh, I think that, you know, at the executive level, 00:47:05.980 --> 00:47:12.320 having female leadership is so important and I value it so much. I, uh, you know, I remain open 00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:17.560 maybe someday in two years, somebody will hear me say that and contact me. So, you know, whatever, 00:47:17.560 --> 00:47:24.380 but, um, anyway, yeah, that's great. And thank you so much for, for joining me, Jill. Uh, I totally, 00:47:24.380 --> 00:47:29.100 I love what you're doing and with all of the information out there, it is so hard to make 00:47:29.100 --> 00:47:33.820 time to follow everybody, but you're one of the small number of folks that I really look forward 00:47:33.820 --> 00:47:38.220 to hearing from when I, you know, on, I saw, I finally signed up for your newsletter, you know 00:47:38.220 --> 00:47:43.340 what I mean? So, uh, I love what you're, you're doing and trying to help the, the media organize, 00:47:43.340 --> 00:47:49.580 the media, uh, industry, you know, so thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. Uh, great. Well, 00:47:49.580 --> 00:47:53.540 we'll talk to you next time and thanks for coming on the show. Thanks, Brian.